BA THOUNG
Dhamma Sakitsa Mingala.
"U Ba Thoung, in a town called Kyaikhto, there is a Lion
Cave Sayadaw who preached "Let the mind be as it is." Which
means before the sankhara dhamma appears, try and be able to
see it as it was. That is nibbana. And another point was that
he said, "whatever you do is suffering. Although I haven't
heard it myself, I had read an article about it by Myingyan
Sayadaw.
In it I read as was said
above. What I found out was that it differs a lot with
those written by famous Sayadaws, such as Ledi Sayadaw,
Deperin Sayadaw. As you have accompanied Lion Cave Sayadaw
for four or five years and went along to give discourses
over the subject, Needn't do anything, to understand is
the main, to understand is the essential",
I am very pleased to have met U Ba Thoung.. There are
some small points, which are doubtful to me and be much obliged
if you can favor me the clarifications.
Answer :
- " I
will answer your question to the best of my ability.
Before I answer
The question, I would like to make a statement. It
is that apart from our Lord Buddha, there is no body
who can answer all questions.
You may not like the discourses
given by the Kyauk Thinbaw Sayadaw,and I am one of
them. I really didn't like it but I had to give up
when ever I tried to argue with him. I had done that
for 18 months. I may not like it, but I can't say
for definite that it is wrong. If you accuse me of my weakness
in communications, I have no other choice but to accept
it. When any of you could have a chance to do so, please
try it.It is very good that one have an opportunity to ask
questions. That is the only way to learn. He can use simple
language so that every one will be able to follow. Talking
a lot doesn't mean the person knows how to talk. If you can
talk short to the point and can express yourself so that
the listeners can understand is far more important than being
talkative.
I became interested in Buddhism when I was
fifteen. I wanted the nibbana preached by our Lord Buddha
very seriously. More than nibbana was that I wanted to be
sotapanna. The reason being I had a strong belief that when
I became sotapanna, my dark skin will turn white. Another
thing was I had a firm belief that for an alcoholic is sure
to go to the nether world when he dies.
Although I was afraid
of the nether world, I haven't stop drinking yet. The reason
being there are a lot of people who doesn't drink yet you
cannot say definitely that they will not go to the nether
world. I had asked a few teachers about it and their reply
was that the non- drinkers aren't free from it, but to
avoid from it, one at least should attain one magga one phol.
Whether one drinks or not, one is not free from the nether
world, I had decided that I will carry on drinking with the
hope of attaining the magga.
One day, after hearing the discourse
by Kyauk Thinbaw Sayadaw, I stopped drinking. Not because
he preached about abstaining to drinks, but the way he
preached was just as a dhamma should be preached. I will
relate how I understoodd the dhamma as dhamma should be and
how I stop drinking.
The Sayadaaw discoursed that the dhamma
as ther dhammma is that its original nature is a tranquil
dhamma. Unable to restrain, you began to do something with
the desire, then it becomes,dukkha, suffering. What ever
you are doing which were based upon desire, the outcome
will be nothing else, but suffering. You have to always bear
that in mind. With all the abilities you have, you can do
your utmost, it may be good, or it may be evil, either doing
it physically or mentally, all will ended in, dukkha,suffering.
All that you have done can never be happiness or delight,
but the true dukkha. You may do as you wish, but before
you do anything, it was peaceful and calm. The suffering
ceased to exist.
Like the old spinster or bachelor. As they
are not married yet, they do not have to worry about a
family, nor the children that are to be born. They are free
of responsibility. When one decides to get married, well
then the consequences are bound to catch up and you have
to face it. Now every common people, which are putujana,
know this physical body resulted in dukkha. Knowing just
only this dukkha isn't enough to attain the nibbana and is
far from it.
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The extra dukkha.
Out of these three, body,
spoken words and mind, if one them had done something,
it will become dukkha. You have to be aware of it before
hand. For those who are aware of it always are known as arahats.
You will be bitter to hear it being called arahat. Those
who know the true dhamma are those who must know the beginning
of the extinction of dhamma. But now I have to tell you
that you know the beginning of the un-extinguishable dukkha
and do not know the true nature of dhamma of extinction.
Be able to see the beginning of dukkha is not enough.
Must be able to see the beginning of extinction.
What we have heard is the extinction of dukkha. There are
a lot of people in Burma who are trying to extinguish the
dukkha. Trying to extinguish the dukkha is to creat another
dukkha over the existing dukkha. By so doing you are sure
to add an extra dukkha. That is the reason why you cannot eradicate a dukkha
with another dukkha. Usually a person suffering from allergy are to abstain
consuming any sea food. When you stubbornly keep eating seafood, the allergy
will never
disappear. It is the same with dukkha. When you saw the beginning of dukkha
and try to eradicate the dukkha.
When a bachelor believes
that getting married will bring him happiness. After he
got married, he has to face all the problems of looking
after the family, earn enough to feed them all and there
is more insurance and medical payments to make for the
increased member of the family. This is the fact and that’s why our Lord Budhha had very clearly
stated " Sabbe sankhara dukkha." Which means
all the compounded things are sufferings. What our Lord
Buddha discoursed was to understand dukkha as dukkha.
What
you have to know about the true dhamma is that the consciousness
of seeing, hearing, taste, smelling, body and mind, are
all skandhas and also the dukkha caused by retribution.
One must understand that these could not be dispelled.
Worst still are our mind creation of more loba(desire or
wanton) which is known as sankata, the bad dukkha. We have
to avoid or abstain from creating
and live accordingly to the original equanimity. For those
who could practice and lived in this manner was mentioned
by our Lord Buddha as a person who could live a life with
extinct dukkha. Remember for the rest of your life. When
Kyauk Thanbaw Sayadaw related this part, I realized that
my alcohol consumption became dukkha piling upon another
dukkha and I stopped drinking from then.
Question : - "What
I understood is the mind cannot be free from the sense
objects. And when the consciousness appears, the setasika
always there. Is it possible to put the mind as is?'
Answer : - "What
my dhamma friend said was quite correct. To enable one to
understand and be aware of the dhamma, one needn't had to
know everything in details. Ledi Sayadaw had commented in
his odtamapurita treatise that when one is discoursing the
consciousness, you needn't have to let it stain with the
cetathika, otherwise it will create confusion. That is the reason why Kyaik Thanbaw
Sayadaw had also said that obhal appears with the consciousness
and so is dosa., so are the desire or unbearable, which
were not tainted by cethatika This is to enable to
be aware of the dhamma and to attain the path, magga, and
fruition, phol. It is divided into two parts, i.e.
To be aware of the extinction and another is consciousness
to be along side of cetathika.
What the Lion Cave Sayadaw deliberately preached was
to know where the extinction is. Like you know when
you ask for water, it is understood that it will be
brought in a cup or glass. The same thing applies to
the consciousness, which is also accompanied by cetasika
.
Question
: - " In
that case, instead of using " to
put the mind as is ", it will be more appropriate
to say "let the mind be cleansed ".
Answer :
- " Yes,
my dhamma friend's suggestion is very good."
Question
: -" When
the good or evil or various mind appears, it is mentioned
in the Four Noble Truths as "jati pi dukkha ".
It was written that the practice to extinguish the
jati is to be able to aware of the condition before
the mind appears. That is the maggin practice. And
this is nabbana. Simply seeing or knowing it, does
it means you are aware of the jati pi dukkha? Can one
claim that one has seen the nibbana? If it is not too
troblesome, could please explain it."
Answer :
- "To say that
one is able to comprehend the dhamma, there is the distinguishing feature
and another is ordinary feature. To put it in another
way, there is the analiytical method and another is to
apprehend a conscious (citta ) only, or (cetatikka)only,or
(nama) or (rupa) only.
When you have to understand one consciousness(citta),one
(cittatikka), one ( rupa), I don't mean that you have to
understand the natural character of it, but the ordinary
character of happening and destruction characters,character
of ceassayion. Merely being aware of this ordinary character
could achieve the completion of the path (magga) and fruition
(phala).
"vinyane bhikhuve ahare
parinya ke namarupam parinyatam hoti."
If you can understand more than this will be much better.
Before the good or evil consciousness appears, to understand
the situation before such consciousness appears. This is
the ceassation of jati that is a very good practice which
was discoursed. Here I have to tell you it be according to
the
Intellectual level. Some will be able to see the nature
(sabhava), some will be able to see as (upasama nusati),
some will be able to see with path (magga) and fruition
(phala) intellect, some will be able to see it with four
stages of paths(magga) and four stage of fruition(phala).
I must say it all depends upon the (parami). The main point
of the Sayadaw's discourse was to be able to see
vimokti nibbanna by apprehending the cessation of jatipi
dukkha. By discoursing in this manner, some could visualizs
the nibbana, some could grasp the vipassanna wisdom, and
some will not be able to make head or tail about it.
Question : -
For those people who do not know the difference between
nama and rupa,by merely asking them to observe all
things as 'it is',who could be possible for them to attain
or achieve the magga practice?
Answer : - For those who are practicing
or studying the scriptures, I am sure they are more
intelligent than Sulaban, who couldn't recite a gata
given to hime in the course of four months. He was
given a piece of white cloth and instructed to keep
on rubbing and he eventually became an arahat. If we
have a good teacher with good means,(What I mean is
that he had used the language of day to day usage which
is applivcabnle to the period, time and location together
with similes and examples.)He needn't use the words
nama rupa, I can understand that one magga (path) and
one phala (fruition) is attaainable. I will not talk
about relying upon the parami and kamma (the past perfection).
The book wrritten by the Sayadaw shows the main point
how the citta (mind) and cetasika (mental factor) appear.
With
regards to citta:- In your mind, when the mind is in contact with the
son , the consciousness of the son appears. When the son
is in contact with the consciousness, it becomes the son's
consciousness.
With regards to cetasika;- Have you always in mind the desire to take
other people's belongings unlawfully?
It is not happening all the time, isn't it? Have you in your mind to hit
or strike,kill in anger all the time?It is true that it does not happen
all the time. This is wehat he wrote in his book about lobha and dosa cetasikas.
One needn't have to know how many cetasikas come along with the mind to
understand the dhamma.
Question : -
Although the nama rupa are in reality the annicca,dukha,a-subs,
anatta,but instead we are taking them as nicca,sukha, suba,
atta by misconception. To know anicca as anicca,to know dukha
as dukha, to understand a-suba as a-suba, to know anatta
as anatta, we are meditating. Is it wrong? Or can we achieve
it without any meditation?
Answer : -
When you asked if it is wrong to merditate over and over
again? My answer is that I am a believer of sicca (truths)
and to me , all that happened are all truths. While you are
meditating, and when you see it as samudaya dukkha, it is
the truth. When you see nirodha magga, it is also the truth.
When you look at this dhamma,and you know for acertain that
suffering as suffering is, then you do not want the suffeering
anymor. You do not appreciate it any more. When you do
not want it, the samudaya oof desire is cleansed, annihilated
or exhausted. When samudaya is nsed, annihiliated or
exhausted, it is known as tanha kayo nibbana,yaga khayo
nibbana. When you have seen this nibbana, it is decided
that this is ther magga wisdom. For this reason, you are asked to develop
duhhka again and again.
I had been meditating the traditional
methods for nearly nine years, but allow mw not to
give you in details relevant to the ways. There were times
that I became unconscious and some of them even claimed
that I had acquired the magga. I needn't rec ount about
it. The fact remains that I'm not a well read and what
I wanted most was to attain the nibbana. Whenever my
instructor, which I had many, asked me to perfom or
showed me a system, I did it very deligently. In the course
of the practice, I had felt or experienced within me
the chill or cold spasm,astringent,trimble or quake
in many occassions.
These experiences were like the happiness of a child
when he was playing with something. And I had seen
a lot who thought that it was dukkha and began to hate,,dispise
,and bored over it.Buddha dhamma cannot be so depressed
and can never be disconcerted after diligent practice.
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Question : -
For the one who do not know the dukkha, don't you
think it is necessary for him to practice meditation so that
he will know?
Answer :- When
he was told that touching a fire will be hot, and yet he
didn't believe, but insisted to touch to accept, well, by
all means he can touch it. In another word, if we are told
that drinking a concoction of arsenic laced in lemon juice
can bring death r if you shoot your brain with a revolver,
it will kill you, although I haven't had the experience,
I believe it. If you insisted that you must experience it
before you believe it, by all means do so. You are welcome
to it.
The defination of this
dhamma is that if one knows the truth of suffering, he
will have no more desire upon it, or not wanting it is extinction
of samudaya of desire. When the samudaya is ceased to exist,
it is called tahna kayo nibbana, raga kayo nibbana. To
be able to observe the nibbana is the true magga wisdom.
That is why we were asked to meditate dukkha thoroughly.
To nurtue magga is dukkha, and my suspicion made me asked
my instructor. I was told to carry on as I was instructed.
Not to be too inquisitive and ask various questions.
Buddha and all the arahats meditate in this manner and
they had attained enlightenment. There is nothing to
doubt about it and if you do you will be left behind.
You must have faith in it was the response I got for
my inquiry. There
were slogans such as "we
require serious practitioner, not the talkative."
Over confusions were over the practice and awareness. If our Lord Buddha had
announced that it involved work in the understanding of the dhamma, then there
wouldn't have any problems at all as far as I am concern. I would like to express
a concept of mine is that you can work or practice to achieve the nibbana as
well as mere awareness. The choice is entirely yours.
Question : -
Could you kindly explain your comprehension regarding to
your statement ' To cleanse the samudaya, you have to meditate
over the dukkha."
Answer :
- Yes, my understanding
is that the dukkha is the result of the cause which happened
in the past. This is also the cause by this moment. There
are sufferings due to the cause of the desire, and another
cause by suffering in combination with the sufferings.
There is dukkha caused by the tanha, mana and ditthi.
There is dukkha caused by clinging or attachment
There is dukkha caused by samudaya.
The dukkha's annihilation is known as nibbana. When you
have seen this nibbana is know as magga wisdom. Only the
true magga wisdom will be able to eradicate the dukkha and
defilements. When you see with the magga insight, the dukkha
and samudaya will disappear automatically like the darkness
after the light is switched on.
What is happening
now is, that it is impossible to cleanse the dukkha and
smudaya by merely seeing it. I like to explain more in
this matter. Annihilation of suffering caused by desire,
or dukkha caused by clinging or attachment will be like
'to love and to be loved".
When you have the love consciousness in you, then you see
something that you saw as love existed. Whatever you think
is never in existence.
While you have the love consciousness,
what you saw of the lovable things are in your thoughts only.
The love is not there. When you are having the love consciousness,
it is there distinctly, it wasn't there before it appearances,
and it will be disintegrated after its appearance. Whatever
dhamma appears, it is bond to be disintegrated. I therefore
say that the love consciousness wasn't there before it appears
and will be destroyed soon after it appeared.After the destruction,
it will not be there anymore.
All consciousness are not permanently there and if it is,
it will not be a permanent. What I want to tell you is:-
All consciousness are not always happening and if it is,
it will not be permanent.
All consciousness are not happening and if it is, it will
never be permanent.
Leave alone the things to be loved is not there, the love
consciousness is not permanent. What I mean by not always
there is, that it is not there before it happens.
For example:- The word that I said now was not there before
I said it and it is the truth. Love consciousness was not
there previously is also the truth. The sound of the drum
appears only after the drum is struck. It is the truth that
the sound was not before you strike it.
Question
: - What you were saying
was that love consciousness , hate consciousness, the consciousness
of joy and consciousness of sorrow are all subject to:-
It was not there before it happens.
After it has happened, it is no more there.
After its destruction, it is not there.
To say it with the least words:-
It does not always happen.
When it happens, it is never permanent.
For people like me, who still have the desire, craving etc., we came across
the love one and loving conscious appear or seeing the hate, we began to hate.
How am I going to restrain it?
Answer :
- I have already told
you that you might have the consciousness of love or hate
appearing but there aren't any to be loved or hated. Although
there aren't any, but the ambiguity has made it vaguely as
though it is there. That is why Lord Buddha preached 'mayupa
minsa vinyanan'/.The conscious of love or hate wasn't there
before it happens. When it happens, it is bound to be destroyed.
After the destruction, it will not be there anymore.
Just like the appearance of the images in your dream, the
consciousness of love or the conscious of hatred appear,
these consciousness are merely metal realization. They are
not the true dhamma in existence.
Look at the head of the household. Sometimes she look so
lovable and sometimes you see her with hatred. If y our wife
is truly a lovable object, how can there be hatred? What
is happening now is that you see her lovable sometimes and
sometimes the other way round. If you try and look for the
creator of love and hatred, you will find that it is our
mind of the moment which is the culprit. You must make the
cheating mind disappear. AS the cheating mind is doing its
work, we needn't try and make it disappear. If you know the
truth, it will disappear by itself. To know the truth:-
It is true that it wasn't there before it appears.
It is also true that it will disappear as soon as appeared.
It is also true that after it has disappeared, there will remain no trace at
all. You must know these principles without any reservations.
Question
: - Without attaining
the ten stages of wisdom, nyanzin, and merely knowing the
Truth of the impermanent, will it be sufficient enough
to consider it as the vipassana meditation?
Answer :
- The ten stages of wisdom
is the mental opinion of the dhamma practitioner. It shows
the changes of the ten stages of mental views towards the
dhamma. It does not concern with the objects of the meditation
and also shows the ten stages of metal outlook. The practitioner
does not really know what stage of wisdom he or she has
attained, but it is the decision made by the teacher after
the discussion with the practitioner as to which stage he or she has attained.
Some of the dhamma friends prefer this idea of application and it is a matter
of individual choice.
Question : - Then for me to attain the sotapanna stage, what have I got to
practice?
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